Interview with Beatrice Libonati, 16/5/2022 (1/2)

Ricardo Viviani: How long have you been here? And what does this place mean to you?

Yes, it was a long time ago. That was at the end of the 80s. We started looking for something for the children, because always travelling to Italy wasn't cheap when we had vacation. We needed a place to relax that wouldn't be so expensive. By the time of the border openings, we were interested whether we might be here. Jan is from Prague, and through his brother we might be able to find someone, like a broker to find places, old farms or something where the children could play. So, many photos were sent and the choice was between two or three places. One was called Čečín. In Cecina in Italy, we had an accident near Orbetello, and we spent the night in Cecina, that was with my family when I was little. Not really because of what happened, but because there was a connection with Italy, so I told we should take Čečín. If it's not possible, then we'll look at another location. He then drove through the area by car with a friend. The friend also found a nice place found for himself, and yes, it was also possible for us. Then we took this place in 1992. That was a place we didn't feel had many problems. Still, there was a lot to do. A lot was broken. The roof, the floors were all redone. The façade was crumbling. The windows were redone. All sorts of things.. There were actually two houses, we bought the second one later. The property was divided in a strange way. To go to the vegetable garden, you had to go through the other house. We took down that house. Now, it is pleasant to walk from here to there. We enjoy gardening, especially now through this very difficult time. It turned out to be a very good idea. It is not a place by the sea, but what's important is the peace and quiet you find here. The other side is that a bit of gardening, taking care of the trees, collect the fruit, are activities that are like a country life; something where you can take time for yourself. For us it helps to get away from the stress of touring, of the hardships of the work. I can't say it's physically light work. That is exhausting. Process the soil or dig holes for trees or roses. But it is a different kind of hardship.

Did you grow up by the sea?

No, I was born in Belgium, in Mons. And we lived there until I was seven years old. That means we went there to school. We were three kids, me in the middle. My father is Italian from the south, Basilicata. He went to Belgium because he wanted to study sculpture at the Academy of Arts in Mons, and at the same time, he worked in the mines to finance it. Then, one free day at a lake he met my mother. The story was a bit more complicated, but basically this. We always went to Italy, and in one of these trips we had that accident in Cecina. Eventually we went to Rome. My father received an invitation from Minister of Finance. He was at the inauguration of a 4 meter high statue on the port of Antwerp, there were all sorts of ministers from Italy. It was a gift from Italy to Belgium. That statue was called Lavoratore Universale. This minister was there and he invited my dad to Rome, saying that he should have a job in the academy, but that got a lot more complicated. There was no money.

Anyway, there we have two interesting and important things. The first was your closeness to art, because of your father, and then the move to Italy. You were seven years old. When did you start to dance?

Actually, already in Belgium. Yes, that might sound childish, but when you're four years old, then you're a child. Back then, we lived in a cellar with my mother – by the way, she was a fashion designer. And there was this journalist made an interview with my father. She brought a bottle as a gift, a nice bottle with some liqueur in. Inside, protected, there was a dancer that through a carillon, turned around and danced with music. Oh, I was so impressed. And that's when I said that I wanted to be a dancer. My parents, especially my mother, because she looked after the finances to make sure we made until the end of each week, she said no. No, you're already much too big. You should have started much earlier. Then we went to Italy. Once there was in the television the New Year's concert with the Vienna Orchestra with Karajan, and there was the ballet. And they were turning and turning, and I thought: my God, that was nice! So told my parents if you can't pay for it, I'll ask my aunt. She had no children and therefore she could have given a bit of support. And then they became concerned that I should go to a good school, maybe the academy, not just any school. Back then, dancing was not associated with good education. Well, they wanted to give me a good education. At the same time there was in my school a gymnastics performance. And it was so nice for me to do something like that

And so I started to go to the academy. I did the entrance exam, still under Jia Ruskaja, the founder of the academy. I think she came from Ukraine. Problematic was her involvement with the fascists, with the politics of the end of the 40s, but she needed that to get the academy started. She was a cultured woman, well educated. She was very interested, not just in classical ballet, but also in modern dance. She went often to Switzerland and to Paris to see the latest shows. She also invited Kurt Jooss, for example, Alexander and Clotilde Sakharoff were also there. She also created a dance notation, and her own kind of modern dance. It was called "Orchestica". Already from the first year on we had classical ballet, and two days in the week we had this "Orchestica". Those were simple exercises, we were very young and those were movements different classical ballet. She was very fond of Isadora Duncan and that inspired her. She was able to secure, for the Accademia, guest choreographers from abroad to come for least 2 to 3 months every year. So, as we were a bit older, we were in contact with people, who had seen the world, bringing new dance vocabularies. Each one brought a new language. When we were 14, we were already working with choreographers like Jean Cébron. After she died, it was all over. We only started at 16, and that's a shame, because with 14 one is still very open to learn other strange things.

Were there performing opportunites for you, other than the end of the year recitals?

So, back then, we had the school recital in September. If you did not come on the first of September, you were in trouble. At that time we had 3 to 4 months of vacation in Italy, because it was too hot. September was stil vacation time. Still you were supposed to come, if you didn't, you couldn't do the recital. There was a small group called "Gruppo Stabile dell'Opera". I can't remember when it was created, I remember that we were allowed to watch the older ones. With the recital it was clear: every class did something, then there was a modern dance, and after that, the guest pieces. I don't know if these pieces, that the guest choreographers created with the older students were played somewhere else. I just know, that this "Gruppo Stabile dell'Opera" was created and they performed smaller pieces. Eventually, I also took part of it. We even went to Vienna, where I danced Model für ein Mobile and the lead role in Nuage by Jean Cébron.

To be there in September, when you're 14, it's not your own decision, it's a vacation time with the family.

Not for me. It was so important. They all suffered because of me: when there was a ballet on TV, I was so mad if they watched something else.

Don't touch the television, don't change channels. Today, we don't know that, but at that time, in the 70s, we only have three channels.

True, also in black and white. That was different at the end of the 1960s.

You are you still 14 or 16. Rome is a center for the Italian television, there are sometimes jobs, where you can earn money dancing. Did you get any jobs there?

Yes, Cinecittà. No, I knew it was there, but I didn't know that you could audition for it. But, in the center of Rome, there was a center called "IALS", Jean Cébron used to give lessons there, parallel to the classes at Accademia, to supplement his income. Giancarlo Bellini also taught there. I also taught there in "IALS" myself.

Do you remember when?

No, I've forgotten. I was invited to teach at the academy. I gave modern dance courses for the students. Margherita Parrilla, the director invited me several times. When I had a day off, or in the afternoons, I tried to also teach at "IALS".

After eight years of study there was the final exam. Now, because the Accademia has status of an university, this degree is now equivalent to a Bachelor's Degree. Giulianna Penzi, the director at the time, said to me: "you have such a beautiful personality, I would love to see you as a teacher. Maybe you should take on pedagogy." These were two courses of study. One was specific to stage dance, and the other for teachers. She wanted me to pursue teaching. Then I thought: oh, my future is ruined. So, I said no, I would like to do this other one: the eight years training plus three years of choreography. She didn't want me to dance, because I didn't have a body of a dancer. Yes, that's the way it is. I dodged this problem by doing these eight years and then following with the three years of choreography. It was so, that in choreography, I was even allowed to learn all the roles. Learn the classic roles: "Coppélia", "La Syphide", "Sleeping Beauty" - Aurora, difficult stuff "en pointe" and so on.

But, because that was a choreography study you needed have this experience!

I was able to choose what I wanted to do. I was also able to be closer to the choreographers. First, was Jean Cébron, then Bellini and we worked together. So, I was able to learn a whole lot from choreography. It all paid off, because after those eight years I could also have a diploma that now, it's worth a lot more than what it was back then. For me that is very nice, it doesn't matter whether it's valuable for anything else, but for all the sweat, it was worth for me.

You can now say that was curious now, because that director always told me: "you are talented and one is born with talent. The other ones here, they don't have any talent, but you can't get that with work. That's the way it is there, but you don't have a body for a dancer." Yes, but the nice thing was, that for all these choreographers that came I was like a magnet for them. They discovered me immediately. For example, the first one I met was Luisa Grimberg from Argentina – she even remembered me when we were in Argentina with the company.

Anyway, she had this language, she told us we should paint, when we move our arms. And me, instead of doing the movement, I pretended to be painting, then I looked at the others and they made all these moves. I thought: what am I doing tere? That was already this impact with something different, with a different language, also such a different way of expressing oneself. And the second choreographer was Jean Cébron. I don't mean later, at the experimental course, but before we had him for three months. He wanted to know immediately who can speak French, and I said I can, so I was translating everything he said. A little kid just like me, trying to translate everything. Eventually, there was a step like this (shows) with stomping feet, and he said: "you, come over here! Show that." And there were the older ones, the adults, and those who were already in eighth year, I was only in my third year. Yes, and there I felt that little jealousy from the others.

Yes, basically that was also school for life, in every company there are all kinds of different social conflicts or antagonies.

Yes, true. Anyway, all these choreographers used me as an example for something, and that was a source of pride for me. That means that no matter what the director said, when someone from outside comes to teach and sees something special in me, that was always encouraging me to keep going on. I was so sure. I was really sure.

Yes, that shows that such a director, no matter how important she is, has a particular vision of a body of a dancer is, but that is one opinion. And there are other opinions, and maybe even from people that you find more interesting artistically.

My dad told me something a month before he died. He said: have you felt this way too? He said that in his life it was so difficult to had any sort of recognition. He had to fight so hard – we all joined in his fight. But he was so sure in his fight, then I said: Papa, me too. So, this motor inside, he had this engine and so did I. In spite of everything, in spite of all difficulties. All of them. Yes, it wasn't all pretty.

His language, I've never really taken his language seriously either. How he always talked about energy, about the universe and its own energy. He used a language like that. I don't know where he got that from. Years later, I cried bitterly when I found these lines in a book: "L’Évangile de Thomas", translated by Jean-Yves Leloup. – Jean Cébron told me to get it, and Sébastian Borde recommended it to him. – Jean Cébron had always this book with him. I probably have a shorter version. But when I started reading it, I saw so much of my dad in it, but he never read the book. You know? His language and this language was so close, that was amazing. He told me that when he was little, he woke up before the sun came up, in this small village on a hill – Rotonda. He woke up very early before the sun came up, because he wanted to see the sun over the hill. He wasn't even five, he told me, and then he stroked the stones on the ground. It were just rocks, and he caressed them all. Then he became a sculptor.

Artistically, that is very enriching. When you talk about it that way, I can also sense as a choreographer – call it improvisation, or wheatever – this place we take our source of inspiration.

Do you know what's important? Many dancers go to school to learn the first position, the fifth position, port de bras and stuff, and they go home. They do the first position, the fifth position, and port de bras. They live locked in this bubble. I've experienced so much of that. "That is what dancing is." I had to fight for it, fight with my family, and that really enriched me in the end. They have also enriched my dance. Do you understand that? I learned so much from them.

To have this ability to see things differently.

And to feel it. To feel in the body and in the head ... The head stirs a great deal, the heart, the head that guides the body greatly. I had to walk so much. The people in the academy came from rich families, noble families. They were brought there by car and back. I had to walk a lot. Walk a lot. I had to get up so early at six, at 6:30 I took my first train. My parents, either dad or mom brought me with a car to the train station, about four or five kilometers, then I took the train to Porta Maggiore, and then another tram, number 13 to Piazza Albania, then walk up to the Accademia and back, every day the same thing. You know, no one else got up at 6:00 in the morning for five years.

As you describe, I realise I was never in the academy. What were these buildings like? Many studios? Can you describe them?

There were originally just three large halls. They were called "Aula de lo specchio", other "Aula Palatina" and the last "Aula degli affreschi". The "Aula degli affreschi" had a huge fireplace from the time of the knights, a painting, a fresco with a battle scene with horses and knights. The "Aula de lo specchio" is newer with a giant mirror on the wall. It was the only one with a mirror. And "Aula Palatina" was beautiful. It had a glass wall, a glass window wall with sliding panels. They open onto a kind of balcony, from there you saw the Palatine hill. The Accademia is on the Aventine hill and from there you saw Palatine, with all the remnants from roman ruins. It's a wonderful place. Lots of nature. Under that, there was still the "Aula Magna". We used it for the final presentation when it rained. It was a small theatre seating about 100 or 200 people, can't remember exactly. Next to that were the rooms for the first three school years. It corresponds to the fifth, sixth and seventh grade in Germany, the intermediate level. The "Liceo classico" was also there, but in another building. First, second and third year of the humanities high school. And also two classes for the high school [Gymnasium]. So everything in these grounds. In these grounds, but in several buildings.

Were there other artists, such as the musicians?

No, none. There was one more building at the very bottom, a library where you went for books, to listen to music, all reference material you needed. And in between, there was a big stage, open air for the public. Not a round space, but a square space; like in a Greek theatre but not round.

Definitely, a very inspiring place. Is it still there?

Yes, the whole thing is still standing. Only inside many things changed. For example, where the school was, they created more studios. Because the Accademia has grown larger. The number of students has increased and now there are also male students. Earlier there were only young women.

Only girls were be accepted or only girls were interested?

Yes, it was a girl's school. Yes, back then in Italy, men were reluctantly sent to dance school. It was for the good education of young women. I can't change that.

After the first eight years of study, you did the next three years of choreography, and then what happened?

So, before that I started with Jean Cébron. That was the seventh and eighth year. This course was still in these first eight years. Well, some of us were chosen to take this course. But that means we did our classical ballet and this course at the same time, so we missed some classical lessons. The problem was that, at the exams we had point shoes exercises and we couldn't do it well, all that I used to be able to do, for example the 32 fouettés, was now difficult for me. I did it, but I couldn't really stretch my feet well anymore, they no longer had the strength. After two years, they asked for my opinion, and I said I wanted to do more classic, more point shoe work. They misunderstood me. They thought, I was less interested in Jean Cébron. He was sad, of course, but I had nothing against this course, all I wanted was to do more classic in addition. That was the truth, because if they demand that I do fouettés, manége at the exam, then I want to do it well.

A brief technical question: were you aware of what direction of ballet was done, Vaganova or Cecchetti?

That is a very relevant question. In the first year we had Giuliana Penzi as a teacher, she later became the director. She taught us in the Ceccheti traditon, because she studied in Milan with Chia Fornaroli. Giuliana Penzi even received an award for modern dance. She also taught us the difference between Cecchetti where the legs raised up to here, for example, but now we bring a bit higher now. I think in the second and third year, was the same, but then it was decided in which direction we were going now. Cecchetti was no longer modern and it was decided that we should study in the Vaganova tradition. So, we adapted ourselves to it. But from time to time, Jean Cébron and also Giuliana Penzi came to replace an absent teacher. And gave us these terrible small jumps for stamina. I can't forget these Cecchetti exercises, that Jean Cébron also did in his lessons.

So, I had to think about that, because when you talk about fouettés I immediately think about the demands of Vaganona that are different from Cecchetti.

Yes, when we started with pointe work in the second year, we also did this kind of fouetté, but only with passé. We knew what it looked like though, when the teacher wasn't there, we tried it, we had some minor accidents.

Were you a good turner and springer?

Yes, I had good aplomb, I turned and turned but I did not use my head to spot. That was my problem, I didn't know how to use the head. At some point, I hurt myself dancing barefoot. That's when I shifted my weight to half-point and I couldn't turn anymore. But at first, I was good at turning. Jumped very well too. Juan Corelli, another choreographer, also taught me male jumps, because I jumped high. I had even jumped through a choreography en pointe. Yes, I know, that hurts.

Anyway that was an aside, because you wanted to take more ballet, more point work, it became a bit of a conflict. What happened next?

Jean Cébron came to continue his work. But there wasn't enough money anyway, so he told me afterwards. He worked at IALS as well, and we both continued to work on choreography, as I then spent those three extra years. I don't know anymore the name of this period, now is "binomio", "trinomio". Jean Cébron was in the first year. And when I did the second year then there was Giancarlo Bellini. 1974 I had the final exam, in 75 before Jean Cébron left, he taught me "Model für ein Mobile", and also the lead role in the choreography "Nuage" in that year as well.

Was improvisation a topic?

Yes, under very specific conditions. He's talked a lot about François Delsarte where "Every Little Movement" counts. And he also recommended the book to us and also the book from Jane Winearls "Modern Dance: The Jooss-Leeder Method", "Choreutics" from Rudolf Laban, I bought everything. This system of six times or five times or four times repetition was already taught to us. I also made a trio with this system, with two other dancers. My choreography was with this kind of work. So, that was not new for me when I came to Wuppertal.

In other words, this was the basis for a specific type of choreography, or dance creation.

As soon as we started with this experimental course, he told me to go to Essen. Right away he told. But you know, I was in university and I also had to work a bit. I worked in two schools, one in Centocelle, not far from where we lived, and one was in Chianciano, two hours by train.

Choreography, improvisation, four times, five times, six times...

Yes, that wasn't the only scheme. He talked about these small movements from Delsarte. We experimented, it was three of us, no, I think we were six in this special course, but after that, in the last year in that other department, then there were three of us. He wanted us to choreograph, not really improvising but through the quality of movement, the dynamic, that we experiment. For example, six moves that strike, or six movements that slide, or float, or six times free flow.

Very much in the Jooss and Folkwang tradition.

Yes, but I mean he didn't just work with Kurt Jooss. He worked with Sirgurd Leeder. He also worked a lot in America with Margaret Craske, with Alfredo Corvino, Ted Shawn and all the people who were teaching at Jacob's Pillow.

Lotte Goslar plus all the Indian, Indonesian, Javanese dance, I think that's a very important thing. Let me ask, he worked so much with details and with hand gestures. When I watch this, I immediately make a parallel to a vocabulary similar to Java and Indonesian dance. That is a wealth of influences from his beginning, much more than was made in the Folkwang in Essen, he was also a teacher there. So, you composed with him these studies?

And at some point, I was alone with him for choreography because the others studied, one as a soloist and the other for teaching, for larger schools. I was for choreography, that means that he worked alone with me. The course had a structure, it was not free, nothing improvised.

Making certain compositions. So you gave classes in these two schools, then did you graduate, get a job?

No, as Bellini was there, during the Easter time, I decided to come to Essen, for ten days or a week. Jean Cébron didn't have a telephone, so, I sent a telegram: "I come."

To send a telegram: you go to the post office, and with three sentences, because he every word or every letter costs something, you just say what you want. So, then I told him very briefly that I would come – in French, and then the time the train arrived. I didn't get any answer from Jean. It was all against it. My mom was in hospital. She had mental health problems and I told her: "Mom, I'm going away for a week. Well, rest assured, I'll be back". "Yes, but why? You go away, you go away." I said: "Look, we've fought so hard. You too. So, that I become somethig. And now? It would be stupid to stop now." So, I took the train, or better: on the Friday I went to the city to the Wasteels, that was an organization that provides cheaper train fares for immigrants. I went by train – in "Cuccetta", meaning a sleeper wagon. They gave me the prices, and I went back home. On Saturday I wanted to travel, and that was closed. This Wasteels was closed. That means that I went to the train station with my luggage and everything, so I paid the full price. That means that the money for the hotel – I didn't know where I'd be staying – was already half gone. Along the way I had to make a stop at the other school. But I took the wrong train. Ended up in Florence, and I had travel back, so I wasn't able to give the course on Saturday evening. I gave it on Sunday morning and I did it longer because I missed the Saturday evening course in Chianciano.

I took the evening train on Sunday to Essen-Werden, in the direction of Dortmund. Yes, as you can see it wasn't easy, this trip. I arrived and there was no one, no Jean Cébron. My luggage was very light, there was nothing in it. A large suitcase with just a pair of pants, training clothes mostly, a shirt, nightgown and a toothbrush. Mostly air inside. Then I went downstairs, in the information desk no one spoke French or Italian, of course, and my English was so bad, but you couldn't do that either. Then I thought well, maybe I'll go upstairs again, and think of something, I'll wait a bit. And then I went back up the stairs, to the tracks and waited. A little man arrived, walked towards me. That was Hans Züllig, he said you went back down so quickly. He spoke in French with me, thank goodness. He picked up my suitcase. Come on then, we're going to Essen. We went to a Café in the corner at Folkwang in Essen-Werden. I ordered a cappuccino. How nice. They brought me a coffee with whipped cream on it. And I was so surprised.

But, there was something good about it. I came to school, and he said I'll tell Susanne Linke right away, you can spend the night with her. I didn't say I had no money, but he probably knew the situation from dancers who came from abroad. Susanne Linke came to me and said: "yes you can spend the night with me. You don't even have to look anywhere." And I was so relieved. I immediately got a scholarship for four months. That was another story with the scholarship. Then there was a presentation of Susanne Linke. Where I also had many leading rolesin her pieces. The day before, Hans Züllig came to me and said: "yes, if you want, we can extend this scholarship for the whole year." I was happy for that. Then there was the performance and Pina Bausch came during the pause. She was so enthusiastic about me, and she really wanted me to join the company. Then after the show, I was in the shower, and she came in the shower, saying that I absolutely had to get into the company.

Did you know Pina Bausch? Had you seen something of hers?

I had seen something once. During this week I was in Essen, I saw Bluebeard.
Okay, then you've had an idea of the work. But she wasn't famous yet, she wasn't famous as she was afterwards. I'd never heard from her in Italy. She wanted me to watch this performance, and that was Bluebeard. That was before a scholarship began. I skipped something now. It was Bluebeard, and Colleen Finneran danced the role of Judith with Jan Minarik. I found out later, that this day would be decided whether to continue playing because Bela Bartok's daughter came and she would decide whether the music could be used like that. And that was for me a fantastic experience. I could only see Judith.

That means at the moment that Pina Bausch came to the shower, you knew that this woman has done this work. Alright, that is important. That means at the moment that Pina Bausch came to the shower, you knew that this woman has done this work. Alright, that is important.

Yes, I knew, but I didn't have any connection with her. So, when she came I knew who she was. People also talked about her during rehearsals. I came in August, we had the rehearsals, and I think, this first performance was in November. You've already got time to get to know something. I think I had actually seen Come Dance With Me. I don't know anymore, or maybe Café Müller. I really liked it all.

That was a large shower, a large room with many showers. I was still under the water. Susanne Linke came and said Pina wants to talk to you. I quickly rinsed off the soap, I took my bathrobe. I wanted to dry off, but there was no time, she was already there. I just covered myself with the light robe I had, still wet. And she repeated that I should come to the company. She wanted to have me so much, I should come to rehearsals from "Macbeth" in Bochum. Rolf Borzik would pick me up at the train station, and so on. Hans Züllig heard about it, and a day after, after the dance class, he came to me and said: "we have an agreement. It's verbal, but it's an agreement." And I thought yes, okay true. It was a bit harsh for me, but what was said was said. That means, even though Pina Bausch wanted me directly in the company, I stayed another year in the school. I went to Bochum from time to time, Rolf Borzik would pick me up from the train station. I stayed overnight at Pina's, then early when they were not awake yet, I left to the train. I was someone around the company, but not in contract.

During "Macbeth" do you remember Jan Minarik from the rehearsals?

I remember not necessarily Jan Minarik, but everyone in general. They were there, Hans Dieter Knebel, but also other people who didn't make to the cast afterwards. They all flirted with me because they also wanted me to join in. I looked at her from time to time and she looked away. That wasn't an encouragement for me that I thought: Oh, what did I do wrong? Do you see? Yes, that wasn't easy.

But there was this excitement from this situation.

I was probably completely red in my face. I was so ashamed. I should have had a bit more courage to sit down, you know, and accept the whole thing as it is. Because that was really great, that she wanted me to come and see the work, what she was doing. She wanted to make sure I liked it.

That's why I asked if you've already seen it. And when you say that's interesting, I see that eventually you did dance Judith in Bluebeard.

Once, I came home with her and then came back to Bochum very early in the morning. And the people weren't there yet. I think only Soňa Červená was there and Jan Minarik came early and he said to me: "You know, when I see you, I can't help but think of my teacher. That one teacher who had made him dance." Maybe because I had glasses, or something.

Do you have memories of Rolf Borzik?

Yes, he was someone who was very dedicated, very helpful, and he spoke French to me. Translated things for me. We played chess during the Asia tour. I once saw, as we waited for the bus, that he was playing chess alone. I said hello, it was early in the morning. I asked if he was playing chess alone, and he said yes, can you play? Yes, but very poorly. Come sit down! And we played a bit. You know, the whites start. I used to play with my brother, but not like him. Rolf Borzik was able to play very well.

By the end of this season, many people let and many came into the company.

We were seven new people: Anne Martin, Lutz Förster, Christian Trouillas, Arthur Rosenfeld, me, Meryl Tankard, even though she had already made Café Müller but was actually new to the company, and Silvia Kesselheim. Silvia was also a great person.

It is interesting. She has a very different story. So, the first thing was the tour of Asia, right?

No, before that, there was the movie of The Rite of Spring recorded in Edinburgh. Right away. That means that before I finished in Essen-Werden – together with Lutz Förster, we went to Wuppertal by bus to rehearse there, on Saturdays and Sundays. When we had no performances or rehearsals, we went to Wuppertal to learn "Sacre". Our first rehearsal was with Pina Bausch. Lutz already knew how she worked, but for me, it was the first time with Pina. The day after, I couldn't get up from bed. We rehearsed the whole Sunday from eleven to five in the afternoon. Everything hurted, everything, the little finger, my head, the hair hurt. Everything! I couldn't turn around in bed anymore.

And that despite that you were a young and very well-trained dancer? How did you like to work so hard?

I liked that! Well, I missed having a break in between. Also, because we didn't know when it would end, that was tiring. Because, if I know when it is going to end, then I can better manage my energy. Maybe it's a psychological strategy from her: that when the people don't know when it ends, they keep giving their maximum. I just thought of that.

That is a very interesting point. The quality becomes different, by keeping going further and further, it keeps expanding.

The same thing happened when I learned the role of Judith in Bluebeard. We were two people learning: Merrill and I. There, I was still able to move, it was another kind of movement. With Judith it wasn't so extreme.

Later, you learned the role of the Chosen One in "The Rite of Spring"?

Well, she wanted me to learn all leading roles right away. But she also told me that I would learn with other people as well. So that, I don't assume that she only wants me to learn the main roles.

Just a quick question for orientation. In the Asian tour, Susanne Linke recently told me that she wasn't on the program, but she toured. Since you worked with Susanne, do you know about this story?

Yes, I know about this story. She really wanted to go, but Pina didn't want her to come along, because she wasn't in the company. She came along anyway, and she shared a room with me, because they didn't book a room for her. She asked me if she could be with me. She just wanted to be there, since she had learned together with Lutz, even before I learned it. Even if her name is not listed in the program. Yes she played the shows.

The first creation you did with Pina was Kontakthof. With a new company, not completely, but many new people, and other people left. After the "Macbeth" experience, still with Rolf Borzik, who created the set-design. Can you remember these processes?

He also created the costumes. I remember that the women in the tailoring shop were not happy when he was there for the fittings. The fact that he was working on this clothes in the bodies. – He was a man of the world and Wuppertal was [still provincial]. It was completely different before. He used to draw a lot, and we had immediately this new room, the Lichtburg. We started working in the ballet studio, and at some point, the Lichtburg was approved for the company. So, we rehearsed maybe a month in the ballet studio, then up in the theater scenery paint workshops, then we went to the Lichtburg.

eurem neuen Saal. Hat euch das ein bisschen beeinflusst – der Raum? Oder sogar die Art, wie ihr euch präsentiert habt?

First off, the Lichtburg was a larger room, and because it was very untidy, it left plenty of room for the imagination. I think, that Rolf Borzik and Pina Bausch were enthusiastic about this room: a former cinema. It had its history, this Lichtburg, and that was then used itself as a stage design.

How was it for you to be in such a creative environment? Could you open up your creativity? What was Kontakthof for you?

I didn't feel completely at ease, because it was based on things that you don't usually talk about. Like human contact when you dance, it is there, but you don't talk about it. For questions like six times different caresses or six times different expressions of anger, everything I was doing seemed so banal to me. You understand? But still, Pina liked the way I was playing with that. Well, she liked the way I used these banalities afterwards. Everything that is now so self-evident in Kontakthof, back then that wasn't taken for granted. For the touching of another person – being affectionate, not stylized as in ballet, but truly affectionate to a real person in the; or to show aggressiveness towards another human, you had to go through so many hurdles. You had to jump over yourself. Pina talked a lot about it later when it was restaged, much later, even after the seniors staging. She talked about how she was touched by Kontakthof, it was all so new, we were all so young and shy, things were not taken for granted. And that we should go back and think about how the piece was created, reclaim these values that the piece must have.

Eventually you worked in the project with the seniors and developed it further.

For them we didn't have to talk about these aspects. Because they were from an older generation, and they felt that one doesn't touch each other. I had to encourage them to flirt. "Why do we need to flirt, in our age?" I really had to address some things, motivate them. For them it was something completely different. "I'm not doing that." For example, so I had to tell why you have to do that.

Can you remember, how was the audience reception from back then. The first time around.

So the premiere and the second performance were sold out, the premiere even overcrowded. The comments were positive, but not so enthusiastic. But, by the third performance there were only 50 people in the audience. It wasn't like today, always sold out, still it was better accepted than previous pieces. For example, with the song The Third Man and now and then group scenes, that was entertaining.

The next piece is Arien. Do you have any particular recollections of it, other than being wet the whole time. Let's say from your background and how the pieces were now laid out, at what moment could you flourish, creativelly?

Arien was something completely different from Kontakthof. First Rolf Borzik was not doing well at all, and that had an effect on Pina Bausch. She came after one or another performance to me, and commented: Oh, Rolf is not doing well, again, and she thinks that the hippopotamus can't get through the door, as in his illness that he is struggling with, which cannot go away. Probably, this mood influenced Arien. Anyway, I love Arien. It is also a piece that is much freer than Kontakthof, and is better for me.

Excuse me. That is an interesting point. Kontakthof, The Rite of Spring and maybe other pieces, have a specific frameworks that are tighter. And then there are other pieces such as Arien, for example, that ask more from the performer, more of the presence. Is that so?

I can't say, but what I can say is that Pina Bausch was very unsure before the premiere. The hippopotamus wasn't finished yet and Hans Dieter Knebel played the role. And Pina said to me: "What did I do there? And that's terrible and everything." And I thought I really liked the piece, I told her that I love it. I could only encourage her, I just said what I felt: I really liked the piece. Maybe it was about what was happening in it, about the elements that come in there. For example, I bring a dead bird to the grave, or something like dancing slowly in this pool. I really liked that. The kiss with Lutz Förster, and this story between us two. I found that so nice. Yes, there are so many elements that are messy, they are so messy in there. But maybe, as you say, that has to do with the elements, and how their power contribute to the piece to hit a nerve. There was the funeral scene and they all started going back and forth in the Lichtburg and I was the only one who stood there, and looked and walked a bit, then I looked again. And Pina said: "Yes, the only one who behaves properly is Beatrice. Because in a funeral you're sad, aren't you?" There are a lot of scenes that invoke moods and I find that nice. For me, that is what dancing on stage is. There is a lot of that in the piece. There's that in Kontakthof as well, but it's very constructed, very artificial, shiny, glamor and stuff, and here you are naked. In Kontakthof you're dressed the whole time. I find that beautiful in Arien, maybe it's not intentional, but that's how it came to be.